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“‘I don’t want this to sound arrogant, but
I believe one day we’re going to have 100,000 a weekend,”
says Pastor Joel Osteen of Lakewood Church in Houston .’”[1]
By Rev. Robert S. Liichow
The Kudos
I want to begin this article by giving credit where credit
is due. When it comes to the Lakewood charismatic mega-church
there are aspects of this ministry which must be cited as worthy.
To begin with the church was originally started by John Osteen,
who was originally a Southern Baptist pastor but after receiving
the “baptism” in/with the Holy Spirit he became enamored
with the charismatic renewal movement in its early stage and
eventually became associated with the Word of Faith (WOF) cult.
The following commentary was taken from the official web site
of Lakewood Church :
The late John Osteen served the Lord Jesus Christ as pastor,
evangelist, author, and teacher for sixty years. Ordained as
a Southern Baptist, he received the baptism in the Holy Ghost
in 1958, an experience which revolutionized his ministry into
a worldwide outreach…John Osteen began Lakewood Church in
a dusty, abandoned feed store on Mother's Day 1959…John
Osteen was driven by an amazing love for people of all ages,
races, nationalities and walks of life.[2]
One thing is certain in a time of racial division John Osteen
opened wide the doors of his church to all people, and all shades
and classes of people came. John, even though he had rejected
his Baptist theology (he did actually earn a Masters degree from
Northern Baptist Seminary) he never lost sight of the need for
foreign missions and his congregation supported and still supports
a great deal of foreign mission work. At the time of his death
Lakewood Church had risen to 8,000 members.
I must be honest with you; out of all the WOF teachers my
wife and I listened to we enjoyed John Osteen more than most.
He did have a genuine pastor’s heart and a desire to see
people come to a saving faith in Jesus Christ. We have many of
John Osteen’s books and tapes in the DMI archives. It seems
that his seminary education helped keep John from espousing some
of the most heretical doctrines that are commonly taught by WOF
teachers today.
However, I am under no illusions regarding the WOF “leaven”
which John propagated and is unfortunately being further magnified
through his son Joel Osteen who took over as Pastor when his
father died in 1999. John was a big crusader for the error of
positive confession. This is a metaphysical belief that we can
either create or change our reality by the power of our words,
for example he stated the following:
When they say like they did to Smith Wigglesworth, "How
are you feeling today?" He said "Listen, I don't ask
my body how it's feeling; I tell it how to feel." And your
words should not be to describe the situation; your words should
be given to change the situation. And so, read it, meditate upon
it, and speak it[3]
I am the sum total of what I have been confessing through
the years. My children are the best children that ever lived
on the face of the earth. They are blessed of God. They are the
sum total of what Dodie and I have confessed and loved them into
being[4]
Osteen is on record as fully endorsing the WOF errant concepts
surrounding financial prosperity:
It's God's will for you to live in prosperity instead of poverty.
It's God's will for you to pay your bills and not be in debt.
It's God's will for you to live in health and not in sickness
all the days of your life[5]
In the above sermon we can see the Health & Wealth “gospel”
summed up three sentences. So despite the good things that John
Osteen did as a Pastor he got ensnared by the subtlety of false
teaching and ended up misleading millions before his death.
Jesus in speaking to His disciples warned them about the leaven
of the Pharisees in the following discussion:
Mt 16:6,11-12
Then Jesus said unto them, Take heed and beware of the leaven
of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees… How is it that ye
do not understand that I spake [it] not to you concerning bread,
that ye should beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and of the
Sadducees? Then understood they how that he bade [them] not beware
of the leaven of bread, but of the doctrine of the Pharisees
and of the Sadducees.
Even though it seems to us that His disciples were a little
slow on the “uptake” at times Jesus makes His point
crystal clear to them --- He was warning them to beware[6], to
be on guard against the danger of their doctrinal errors, which
Jesus likens to leaven in bread. Jesus knew that if left unchecked,
like leaven in bread, their doctrinal error would spread. The
leaven of false doctrines which he instilled in his son are now
expanding and misleading more people than John Osteen could have
ever imagined.
The Concerns
Joel Osteen Master of Marketeering
Joel Osteen has absolutely no biblical training or experience
to be a pastor. Charismatic pulpits are filled with people who
feel “called” to the pastorate and that is enough for
them and those who follow them. They attempt to build congregations
on the “strength” of their calling. Some charismatic
leaders may go on to some unaccredited “ Bible School ”
for a year or two, none (which encompasses a large group of ministers)
that we were ever acquainted with attended any legitimate seminary.
Would you allow a surgeon to operate on you because he felt
“called” to be a surgeon as a child, but never went
on to medical school? Or would you allow someone to build your
house who firmly believed God had called him to be an architect
yet had never gone on to college to study architectural design?
Of course not, it would be the height of foolishness!
Yet millions of professing Christians are more than willing
to follow a man (or woman) who says “God” has called
them and has supernaturally equipped them to be ministers. (FWM
doesn't agree with this statement as we believe God can and has
called many a man to the Ministry and has used them greatly who
never attended any type of Bible College, but we do agree that
those same men studied their Bibles daily and learned the Word.)
These especially anointed men and women have no need to study
Church history, hermeneutics, systematic theology and struggle
through Greek and Hebrew as other ministers do. They hear directly
from God (this is especially true for the sign-gift[7] pastors,
most seeker-sensitive churches are led by seminary educated individuals).
So my first main concern is that we have a man in the pulpit
of the largest congregation in America , being beamed around
the world that has no biblical education or training for the
vocation he says he has! To me we have a clear case of the blind
leading the blind (read Luke 6:39) with the end result being
masses of people falling into the ditch of spiritual ignorance,
abuse and/or extremism.
Joel Osteen made the following statement which ought to be
enough to drive 1,000’s of people away from his church:
Osteen’s upbeat style is deliberate and authentic. ‘Make
church relevant,’ he says. ‘Give them something to
be able to take away. I find today people are not looking for
theology. There’s a place for it, [But] in your everyday
life you need to know how to live.[8]
That statement is loaded with seeker-sensitive “code.”
My wife and I left a North American Baptist church of over 1,000
members which had as its acronym “GPARS” which stood
for: (1) Grace; (2) People; (3) Authenticity; (4) Relevance and
(5) Small groups.
Of course Osteen’s “style” is upbeat, would
you expect negativity from a positive confession devotee? No!
Deliberate, absolutely, he really believes much of the WOF nonsense
his father taught him all his life, not to mention whatever offbeat
spirituality he may have gleaned from his two years at Oral Roberts
University . Authentic? Without a doubt! What you see is what
you get. Joel Osteen is a man without any biblical education
but an admitted talent for marketing.
To be a success in marketing you have to know where people
itch and scratch it. Or, you have to create a desire in them
by creating a hunger for something they currently do not have
nor formerly knew they needed. All commercials can be condensed
down to one of these two truths.
So to become a mega-church a pastor has to make church relevant.
He has to give the people what they want, something that soothes
that spiritual itch. In order to be a “success” (i.e.
large masses of people and money) pastors must preach unchallenging
messages that uplift rather than convict. He must pander to the
lowest common denominator and make sure that whatever is taught
does not offend anymore at anytime. What we are seeing is really
nothing new, it is a simply fulfillment of 2Ti 4:3-4
For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine;
but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers,
having itching ears; And they shall turn away [their] ears from
the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.
This is exactly where multitudes of people are spiritually
today. The above text also helps explain the phenomena of people
like Robert Schuller, Rick Warren, Bill Hybels and now, Joel
Osteen.
Osteen goes on to say that “I find today that people
are not looking for theology.” Well that is obvious because
if they were they would not find any sound theology at Lakewood
! Although he does not reveal to the readers where he found this
astonishing fact out, it appears the folks he has talked to have
no interest in theology.
Lest you think me a bit harsh let me remind you that theology
simply means “the knowledge of God.” In essence Osteen
has said that people are really not interested in learning about
God. Somehow (undoubtedly due to his lack of biblical education)
he has made a disconnect between knowing the God of the Bible
via sound biblical theology and “knowing how to live.”
Brothers and sisters, my wife and I can testify to you that
the more accurately you understand God within the biblical context
the better life you will live before Him. Tracy and I have a
daughter, she does not like to eat certain vegetables but we
MAKE her eat them from time to time. Why? As her parents, even
though somewhat distasteful to her we know that eating them will
be beneficial.
The same is true for every man who mounts a pulpit! God does
not tell us to feed the sheep what they want to eat. Jesus told
Peter “feed My sheep,” (see John 21:16). Jesus said
“feed” the sheep not “entertain” them! We
are to give them the Word of God in its totality. Any pastor
can fall into the trap of becoming a people pleaser. This is
why Paul, through the Holy Ghost warned young Timothy in the
verse just above the one I cited: 2Ti 4:-2
I charge [thee] therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ,
who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his
kingdom; Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season;
reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.
Timothy is WARNED to be steadfast in his proclamation of the
Gospel to be ready and in his preaching to: (1) REPROVE; (2)
REBUKE; (3) EXHORT the people according to the Scriptures. How?
We are to preach with all longsuffering (because such preaching
is unpleasant to people’s carnal nature) and with doctrine.
GASP! Doctrine? I can hear the seeker-sensitive pundits saying
“oh come now, Rev. Liichow, surely you know preaching doctrinal
messages is passé?” Osteen would do well to heed
the word of the Lord from a genuine prophet who stated: Eze 34:2
-3
Son of man, prophesy against the shepherds of Israel , prophesy,
and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD unto the shepherds;
Woe [be] to the shepherds of Israel that do feed themselves!
should not the shepherds feed the flocks? Ye eat the fat, and
ye clothe you with the wool, ye kill them that are fed: [but]
ye feed not the flock.
There are many biblical themes which are very “unpopular”
and even politically “incorrect” yet the faithful pastor/teacher
will expound on these topics as well so that the flock under
his care is receiving a balanced spiritual diet and is able to
walk in the full light of God’s Word and not in the shadows.
What is Joel’s educational background and experience?
Since we know his training is not theological, what is it? He
did attend Oral Roberts University for two years, but his area
of study had to do with television production and marketing.
Meanwhile, son Joel, one of six children, was learning the
business of television… ‘Growing up, I knew what I
wanted to do. I wanted to be involved in TV production,’
he says. ‘That was just my passion.’ In 1981 he came
home from Oral Roberts University (ORU) to start the Lakewood
TV ministry.[9]
For seventeen (17) years Joel was behind the scenes handling
all the television and marketing of his father’s ministry.
The next statement from the Charisma article is very revealing:
The younger Osteen’s television-marketing talents and
his dad’s preaching skills resulted eventually in the church
churches being aired on stations nationwide and in more than
100 countries.[10]
Joel Osteen had the ability to get his father’s heavily
WOF influenced message out all over America and into 100 foreign
markets. Due to this dynamic-duo of folksy preaching/teaching
and highly visible presence on television Lakewood Church grew
to close to 8,000 members at the time of John Osteen’s death
in 1999.
With his father sick in the hospital, John asks his son, Joel,
to preach for him that Sunday. Initially Joel balked at the idea
and said “no.” He then relented and here are Joel’s
own words concerning his preaching that day:
I just got up there and told stories. I was so glad when it
was over, I said, ‘I’ll never do this again in my life.’[11]
That was the beginning of his public ministry; he just got
up and told “stories.” Joel has been telling stories
that have been tickling the ears of the multitudes ever since.
Here is how the article describes Joel’s style of preaching:
The appealing style of Osteen’s personality in the pulpit
is unmistakable. It is part of the reason for the Lakewood ’s
current level of success.[12]
Everyone agrees Osteen’s preaching is a key ingredient.
Descriptions of his style include ‘simple,’ ‘down-to-earth,’
‘practical,’ ‘relatable,’ ‘easy,’
‘folksy,’ ‘humble.’[13]
It’s 10 a.m. when he began his sermon. The theme is practical
as he gives example after example of the importance of following
God’s timing rather than one’s own. He keeps the tone
cheerful, optimistic. ‘God doesn’t want anybody walking
out of here today heavy-hearted and downcast,” Osteen says.[14]
Joel Osteen is charismatic in his personality. He is not a
bad looking man, his delivery is as non-threatening as the positive
messages he delivers. Perhaps I am reading in to much yet when
I read “practical” it makes me think that he believes
teaching theology is somehow “impractical.” The example
after example simple means he tells a lot of stories and anecdotes
that somehow relate to the message in which he may cite one or
two proof texts to make his point.
It also concerns me when a pastor can make the statement that
God does not want anybody walking out of here “heavy-hearted.”
My Bible says “godly sorrow worketh repentance…”
(see 2 Cor. 7:10). At times God does want us to walk out of a
service “heavy-hearted” if we have been sinning against
His will. We should allow the Word (when properly expounded)
and the Spirit (when genuinely present) to break us, to convict
us of sinful attitudes and practices.
However if all you hear is “upbeat,” “cheerful,”
and “optimistic” messages there is little opportunity
for the Holy Spirit to work conviction in the hearts of the hearers.
This folksy down home non-confrontational type of message also
goes a long way in explaining the huge crowds that gather to
be entertained.
Let Us Entertain You
Entertained? Oh yes, it is not only Joel’s preaching
style but the music of Lakewood is an important ingredient in
drawing large hoards of people. Once Joel took command of Lakewood
’s already large congregation (between 6,000 to 8,000 members)
he began to expand the musical talent as well.
Four years ago, when Cindy Cruse-Ratcliff --- former member
of the Dove Award-winning Cruse Family gospel group --- became
Lakewood’s minister of music, the church had only one Sunday
morning service…Soon after Cruse-Ratcliff arrived Lakewood
expanded when two Sunday morning services were added…’The
growth was extremely rapid,’ says Cruse-Ratcliff, who still
serves on the 200-member Lakewood. Staff.[15]
“Star power” brings people to churches as well,
especially musical stars and Joel is not ignorant of this fact.
As minister of music Ms. Ratcliff knows people in the contemporary
music scene and she no doubt help add to the musical strength
of this mega-church by helping bring in some more musical talent:
Helping to spice up that mix are two of the most prominent
names in worship music. Marcos Witt, who fills stadiums in Latin
America for worship concerts was tapped in 2002 to pastor Lakewood
’s 3,000 member Hispanic congregation. Also adding diversity
to the Lakewood staff is Israel Houghton, whose soulful worship
anthems are sung around the world.[16]
The music at Lakewood is contemporary. They have musical stars
that appeal to Hispanic (Witt), African-American (Houghton) and
Caucasian members (Ratcliff). The musical team writes many of
their own songs and nothing in the article is ever mentioned
about hymns.
This is not surprising when you consider that (to our knowledge)
no seeker-sensitive or WOF congregation use hymnals at all, apart
from the occasional singing of Amazing Grace. The charismatic
movement’s brand of music has infiltrated almost all evangelical
congregations that have forsaken the use of the historic hymns.
At our former seeker-sensitive Baptist church we sang songs that
originated from the Toronto “revival” and from the
Vineyard movement, two examples of some of the wildest expressions
within the renewal movement.
Musically speaking there is a method “to their madness”
at Lakewood and other mega-churches. They have a strong emphasis
to cut all ties with traditional Christianity. The classic, highly
theological hymns and hymnals virtually scream out the dreaded
word “traditional.”
Out With the Old, In With the New
Lakewood and all seeker congregations do not want to be associated
with any denominational trappings or any forms of liturgical
worship[17]. Many of these churches have even removed crosses
from behind their pulpits lest they appear to be too churchy
to the seeker.
In all our time spent among both Pentecostal believers and
seeker-sensitive groups we never recited the Lord’s prayer
as part of our worship. We never recited any of the historic
creeds of the orthodox Church. I doubt there are three people
who attend Lakewood who could recite the Apostles or Nicene Creeds,
probably few know the Lord’s Prayer. Catechism classes?
You’ve got to be kidding! In its place some groups may offer
a new member’s class, but these classes are usually just
general introductions to what the church has to offer the “seeker.”
Osteen being a sign-gift believer offers classes which promote
the concept of a second baptism in/with/by the Holy Spirit, but
this aspect seems to be soft-peddled as well.
What Is the Key to Osteen’s Success?
Osteen I believe is probably the first of many WOF devotee’s
who has melded the successful marketing techniques of the seeker-sensitive
mega-churches with their positive confession health & wealth
message. The blend becomes a potent hybrid that appeals to both
sign-gift believers (sort of “charismatic lite”) and
baby-boomer seekers.
The message that God wants to bless His children with complete
physical health, to give them great financial wealth and to demand
little of them regarding their spiritual life is a highly appealing
message. When you combine this with well known Gospel singers,
highly orchestrated praise and worship teams in a decidedly non-church
atmosphere it will appeal to even a wider audience.
We cannot forget to mix in the vast television footprint that
Lakewood church promotes, along with its web site, daddy John
Osteen’s books are still in almost all Christian bookstores
so it is not difficult to understand how it can gather 30,000
people in Lakewood ’s rented 16,000 seat arena, formerly
the home of the Houston Rockets.
What saddens me the most is that one hears little, if any,
Law & Gospel proclaimed by Joel at Lakewood Church . To quote
something I remember hearing “dad” Hagin say: “how
do you poison a dog? You put the poison in with the good meat.”
I do not want to press the analogy too far but the reality is
that 30,000 people are not being biblically fed a balanced spiritual
diet that will promote true growth in their lives. What you do
hear is a synthesis of WOF concepts wrapped up in a seeker-friendly
environment by a young man with a winsome smile.
Lastly, we cannot lose sight of the fact that a certain synergy
builds with any church when it begins to reach such a size. People,
who have no solid doctrinal foundation, will want to attend the
place where “something” is happening (throw in a coffee
bar, ice rink and gym does not hurt either). In America , bigger
is better. After all, many posit, if Joel was not being used
of the Lord then why would God allow all these people to come
to Lakewood church?
Could it be a sign of God’s judgment on His people who
have forsaken His ways? Often we think of God’s judgment
as some divine catastrophe, yet often, and just as catastrophic,
is when He simply allows people to have own way. I believe the
words of Jeremiah are applicable to many in the Church today:
Jer 2:12-13
Be astonished, O ye heavens, at this, and be horribly afraid,
be ye very desolate, saith the LORD. For my people have committed
two evils; they have forsaken me the fountain of living waters,
[and] hewed them out cisterns, broken cisterns, that can hold
no water.
As much as Joel no doubt believes the growth they’ve
experienced is due to the blessing of God it really boils down
to three simple things, which have nothing to do with God at
all: (1) his father’s legacy and an already existing mega-church;
(2) Joel’s slick marketing abilities; (3) a biblically errant,
but hugely popular message which appeals to the masses seeking
to have their ears tickled and experience a “good time”
in church. Please pray for Joel Osteen, like it or not, he currently
has a tremendous impact on many people. Pray the Lord open his
eyes to biblical truth and may he take as bold a stand to expose
error.
Thank you Rev. Liichow
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I know that is a lot to digest but the best is yet to come.
When Joel Osteen was interviewed by Larry King on the Larry King
Live program, Joel sounded like the lost sheep he is. He answered
so many questions with "I don't know" and others he
just skirted around so as not to have to take a stance of any
kind. This is the saddest interview I have ever heard, especially
from a man who claims he is now the "Pastor" of over
30,000 people who cling to every word he speaks. Read the whole
interview and be amazed and saddened.
LARRY KING AND JOEL OSTEEN INTERVIEW
 LARRY
KING, CNN HOST: Tonight, Joel Osteen, evangelism's hottest rising
star, pastor for the biggest congregation in the United States.
He literally filled the shoes of his late father who founded
the church, and wait until you hear what he had to overcome to
do it. Pastor Joel Osteen is here for the hour. We'll take your
calls. It's next on LARRY KING LIVE.
Joel Osteen is the author of the number one "New York Times"
best-seller, "Your Best Life Now." There you see its
cover. "Seven Steps to Living at Your Full Potential."
There is now a compendium been published called "Your Best
Life Now Journal," a guide to reaching that full potential.
Joel Osteen is pastor of Lakewood Church in Houston, Texas. His
father before him. He has been called the smiling preacher. We
met.
JOEL OSTEEN, EVANGELIST: Yes. (You will notice later on that
Joel claims: "I'm a reverend and a pastor. A pastor of the
church. I go by usually pastor", see this link and then
later on you will see a conversation about Joel being an Evangelist
and his wife Victoria being an Evangelist's wife. see this link).
Why did Joel or his wife not correct Larry King about Joel's
being evangelist, there seems to be some confusion with Joel
and his wife both as to what Joel's calling actually is). By
the way, for being a Pastor, Joel does not perform weddings,
funerals or visitations. Quite a gig huh?
KING: Long ago with your father.
OSTEEN: We did. We met at a charity event for the Heart Association
down there with Dr. DeBakey, I believe, or Dr. Cooley (ph).
KING: Dr. Cooley -- about seven, eight years ago.
OSTEEN: You were my dad's favorite. And you were sitting up at
the table and I said, I didn't know any better then. I said,
daddy, let's go, I'll introduce you to him. Like I knew you or
something. And I did. It just made his day. We didn't meet for
10 seconds, but he loved you.
KING: Why are you a preacher?
OSTEEN: You know, I never was for 17 years. I worked with my
dad there at the church. He tried to get me to minister. I didn't
have it in me. I worked behind the scenes. I loved doing production
and things. But when my father died, I just knew -- I don't know
how to explain it, it sounds kind of odd, but I just knew down
to here I was supposed to step up to the plate and pastor the
church. And it was odd because I had never preached before. But
I just knew I was supposed to do it.
KING: Did it come easily?
OSTEEN: It did. It came -- it came somewhat easily. I had to
study. I was nervous. Still get nervous. But it did. I believe
God gives you the grace to do what you need to do. And the great
thing about it is the people were so loyal to my father. They
wanted one of his sons to take over. And daddy had never really
necessarily raised anybody up under him.
KING: What do the other sons do?
OSTEEN: Well, my brother Paul is a surgeon and he works with
us there at the church. He gave up his practice to work with
us and I have other sisters and brothers that work, as well.
KING: Is -- have you always believed?
OSTEEN: I have always believed. I grew up, you know, my parents
were a good Christian people. They showed us love in the home.
My parents were the same in the pulpit as they were at home.
I think that's where a lot of preachers' kids get off base sometimes.
Because they don't see the same things at both places. But I've
always believed. I saw it through my parents. And I just grew
up believing.
KING: But you're not fire and brimstone, right? You're not pound
the decks and hell and dam nation?
OSTEEN: No. That's not me. It's never been me. I've always been
an encourager at heart. And when I took over from my father he
came from the Southern Baptist background and back 40, 50 years
ago there was a lot more of that. But, you know, I just -- I
don't believe in that. I don't believe -- maybe it was for a
time. But I don't have it in my heart to condemn people. I'm
there to encourage them. I see myself more as a coach, as a motivator
to help them experience the life God has for us.
KING: But don't you think if people don't believe as you believe,
they're somehow condemned?
OSTEEN: You know, I think that happens in our society. But I
try not to do that. I tell people all the time, preached a couple
Sundays about it. I'm for everybody. You may not agree with me,
but to me it's not my job to try to straighten everybody out.
The Gospel called the good news. My message is a message of hope,
that's God's for you. You can live a good life no matter what's
happened to you. And so I don't know. I know there is condemnation
but I don't feel that's my place.
KING: You've been criticized for that, haven't you?
OSTEEN: I have. I have. Because I don't know.
KING: Good news guy, right?
OSTEEN: Yeah. But you know what? It's just in me. I search my
heart and I think, God, is this what I'm supposed to do? I made
a decision when my father died, you know what? I'm going to be
who I feel like I'm supposed to be. And if it doesn't work, it
doesn't work. Not the end of the world if I'm not the pastor
...
KING: Where were you ordained? OSTEEN: I was ordained from the
church there, Lakewood, under my dad's ministry.
KING: So you didn't go to seminary?
OSTEEN: No, sir, I didn't.
KING: They can just make you a minister?
OSTEEN: You can, you can.
KING: That's kind of an easy way in.
OSTEEN: Yeah, but I think it happens more than you think. But
I didn't go to seminary. I have a lot of great friends that did.
But I didn't. But I did study 17 years under my dad. You know
...
KING: Are you a pastor? A reverend? Legally what are you?
OSTEEN: I'm a reverend and a pastor. A pastor of the church.
I go by usually pastor.
KING: You can marry people?
OSTEEN: Yes, sir.
KING: So the church in a sense ordained you?
OSTEEN: Right. And then you're ordained through the State of
Texas.
KING: How'd it grow so much?
OSTEEN: I don't know, Larry. I don't know if there was one thing.
I think part of it was my dad had such a great foundation. Then
all of a sudden here comes somebody 40 years younger, just new
energy. New life. You know. I think one thing is my dad had a
television ministry to start with. So all of a sudden here I
was 36 years old and I was on television. Well, most young men
that age, they're building a congregation and it costs a lot
of money to be on television and all that. So all of a sudden
there was a young minister across America. So I don't know if
it's part of that. I think part of it is the message of hope
and that I'm for people.
KING: You're nondenominational?
OSTEEN: We are, we are.
KING: Your father, though, was ...
OSTEEN: He was Southern Baptist. But he left that way back in
the early '60s. And then he just started Lakewood Church. And
we've always been independent and just for everybody.
KING: Many evangelists feel that the church, the church itself,
the religion, has failed. You share that view?
OSTEEN: Well, I think in a sense when you see certain things
in society you would think that. But in another sense I see faith
in America. Faith in the world. At an all-time high today. When
I was growing up it was a big deal to have a church of 1,000.
Now there's churches of 10,000. So many of them. So I think in
one sense I can agree with that point. But in another sense I
see a real spiritual awakening taking place.
KING: How many people come to your church?
OSTEEN: We have about 30,000 each weekend.
KING: How do you hold them?
OSTEEN: We have multiple services. It holds 8,000. But we're
about to move into a new facility. But we just do a lot of services.
KING: You work all day Sunday?
OSTEEN: We do. And Saturday. We do one Saturday night and then
four -- three Sunday and one Spanish. So it's a lot of work.
KING: You write all your own?
OSTEEN: I do. I do all my own research and do all my own service.
KING: And when are you on television?
OSTEEN: We're on different times. We're in the top 25 markets
on one of the network stations.
KING: Sundays usually?
OSTEEN: Yes, sir. Usually Sundays.
KING: Are you asking for money?
OSTEEN: We never have. Never have. Since my dad started. I started
a television ministry for my father back in '83. That was one
decision we made. We just don't ask for money. We never have,
we never will. You know, it's -- I don't criticize people that
do. Some of them have to. But I just, I don't want anything to
pull away from the message.
KING: How do you get the money to get the time on television?
OSTEEN: The church supports it.
KING: How does the church get the money?
OSTEEN: Well, they just give. There are just a lot of them, they're
faithful, they're loyal people, they believe in giving. And the
other thing too, what's interesting, Larry, we don't ask for
money on television. But people see your heart. People send in
money like you wouldn't imagine to underwrite it. KING: Really?
Without your ever saying order this medal?
OSTEEN: Exactly. It's a testament to, you know, I think if people
can see your heart is right. I'm certainly not the only one.
But I don't get on there and beg for money. People send it in.
You'd be amazed.
KING: Do you think there's too much of that, send in this,
my new book is out?
OSTEEN: I think in general there probably is. Because people
are so skeptical anyway. Why are you on there? You just want
my money. We just try to stay away from it. I don't know if there
is or not. To me sometimes I think, you know. I would -- I think
people get on and they have to make the television audience underwrite
it. And then they spend their time doing that. (Here we have
Joel telling a actual lie on national television. Here Joel is
saying that there is in general too much advertising going on
with preachers trying to sell their books, etc. on TV and that
"We just try to stay away from that". When in actuality
you cannot watch one of Joel's television programs without having
NUMEROUS advertisements blocking out about 1/4 of the screen
advertising either Joel's Book, or an upcoming Tour date which
both cost money!)
KING: So it's self-fulfilling. Billy Graham was here last
Thursday.
OSTEEN: I saw.
KING: Might have been his last interview. Is he a hero to the
evangelists?
OSTEEN: He is a hero to us all. His life of integrity. Somebody
that can stick with for that long and just stick with his message.
What I love about Dr. Graham is he stayed on course. He didn't
get sidetracked. That's what happens to so many people today.
It's a good lesson for me, a good example for me to say, you
know what, Joel, you may have a lot now but I want to be here
40 years from now sitting with you.
KING: Do you share Billy's beliefs of life after death in a sense
of going somewhere?
OSTEEN: I do. I do. We probably agree on 99 percent. I do. I
believe there's a heaven you know. Afterwards, there's, you know,
a place called hell. And I believe it's when we have a relationship
with God and his son Jesus and that's what the Bible teaches
us. I believe it.
KING: Our guest is Joel Osteen. The senior pastor for Lakewood
Church in Houston, the author of "Your Best Life Now,"
amazing bestseller. We'll be right back.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
OSTEEN: See people are watching you. Especially your children.
They're taking in every single thing you do. They are like video
cameras with legs. And they are always in the record mode. They
learn more from what you do than from what you say. Like that
old saying, I'd rather see a sermon than hear one any day.
And when you are tempted to compromise and just take the easy
way out, I challenge you to think generationally. Know that every
right choice you make you are making it a little bit easier on
those that come after you.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
KING: Our guest, Joel Osteen. Why do you think "Your
Best Life Now" did as well as it did?
OSTEEN: It surprised me.
KING: There's a lot of books about improving yourself.
OSTEEN: Yeah. I don't know. I think coming from the Christian
base, and I think the fact that I don't know, it's a book of
encouragement and inspiration. And to me it seems like there's
so much pulling us down in our society today. There's so much
negative. Most of my book is about how you can live a good life
today in spite of all that. So I think that had a big part of
it.
KING: But it doesn't quote a lot of biblical passages until the
back of the book, right?
OSTEEN: It doesn't do a whole lot of it. My message, I wanted
to reach the mainstream. We've reached the church audience. So
I just try to, what I do is just try to teach practical principles.
I may not bring the scripture in until the end of my sermon and
I might feel bad about that. Here's the thought. I talked yesterday
about living to give. That's what a life should be about. I brought
in at the end about some of the scriptures that talk about that.
But same principal in the book.
KING: Is it hard to lead a Christian life?
OSTEEN: I don't think it's that hard. To me it's fun. We have
joy and happiness. Our family -- I don't feel like that at all.
I'm not trying to follow a set of rules and stuff. I'm just living
my life.
KING: But you have rules, don't you?
OSTEEN: We do have rules. But the main rule to me is to honor
God with your life. To life a live of integrity. Not be selfish.
You know, help others. But that's really the essence of the Christian
faith.
KING: That we live in deeds?
OSTEEN: I don't know. What do you mean by that?
KING: Because we've had ministers on who said, your record
don't count. You either believe in Christ or you don't. If you
believe in Christ, you are, you are going to heaven. And if you
don't no matter what you've done in your life, you ain't.
OSTEEN: Yeah, I don't know. There's probably a balance between.
I believe you have to know Christ. But I think that if you know
Christ, if you're a believer in God, you're going to have some
good works. I think it's a cop-out to say I'm a Christian but
I don't ever do anything ...
KING: What if you're Jewish or Muslim, you don't accept Christ
at all?
OSTEEN: You know, I'm very careful about saying who would and
wouldn't go to heaven. I don't know ...
KING: If you believe you have to believe in Christ? They're wrong,
aren't they?
OSTEEN: Well, I don't know if I believe they're wrong. I believe
here's what the Bible teaches and from the Christian faith this
is what I believe. But I just think that only God with judge
a person's heart. I spent a lot of time in India with my father.
I don't know all about their religion. But I know they love God.
And I don't know. I've seen their sincerity. So I don't know.
I know for me, and what the Bible teaches, I want to have a relationship
with Jesus. (Since this interview Joel has apologized to his
congregation for his failure to express what he truly believed.
If Joel didn't actually believe the statements above, then why
did he say them to start with. THE TRUTH BE KNOWN, Joel has a
real problem on his hands that he is hiding from the public and
from himself. I believe that he actually does believe what he
said during the interview, but because of criticism he received
for making them, he gave an apology. Unless Joel actually changes
his belief and not just act like it, he is certainly in for a
rude awakening come judgment day).
KING: The Senate apologized last week for slavery. You think
the Southern Baptists and a lot of the churches in the South
owe some apology, too?
OSTEEN: I've never thought about it. Because I just didn't --
wasn't raised in it.
KING: But you know its history.
OSTEEN: Oh, absolutely. I think that it would never hurt; anything
we could do to make amends, the better it can be. That's what
I love about our church. It's made up of all different races.
That's what life should all be about. That's what God wants it
to be.
KING: Doesn't it hurt you that people 50 years ago talking about
God and Christ also didn't -- Martin Luther King call 11:00 a.m.
Sunday morning the most segregated hour in America? Does it bother
you to know that predecessors of yours ..
OSTEEN: Yeah, absolutely bothers me. It's not right. It's a shame,
and I don't know how they could do it with a pure heart to God
but, you know what? It happened.
KING: I want to get to the seven steps. But when the people
call you cotton candy theology. Someone said you're very good
but there's no spiritual nourishment. I don't know what that
means ...
OSTEEN: I think, I hear it meaning a lot of different things.
One I think a lot of it is that I'm not condemning people. And
I don't know, but Larry I talk, I mean every week in our church
we're dealing with people that are fighting cancer, that have
their lost loved ones. That are going through a divorce. I mean,
I talk about those issues, and to me I don't see how it can get
any more, you know, real than that. So I don't know what the
criticism is. (How about Salvation, repenting of your sins, how
about accepting Jesus. Is that real enough? All the things Joel
talked about are issues which are certainly important issues
but are not the Salvation message that should be preached).
KING: What is the prosperity gospel?
OSTEEN: I think the prosperity gospel in general is -- well I
don't know. I hear it too. I don't know. I think what sometimes
you see is it's just all about money. That's not what I believe.
It's the attitude of your heart, and so you know, we believe
-- but I do believe this, that God wants us to be blessed. He
wants us to be able to send our kids to college, excel in our
careers. But prosperity to me, Larry, is not just money, it's
having health. What good is money if you don't have health?
KING: Also many in the Christian belief are wary of too much
material, aren't they?
OSTEEN: Yeah, I think some of them are. But to me, you know,
I hope people get blessed if they can handle it right. Because
it takes money to do good. You know to do things for people.
To spread the good news. So I think it's all a matter of your
heart.
KING: You think other preachers are envious of you?
OSTEEN: If they are, I don't feel it. I've got so many good friends.
And the ones I know are encouraging me. I don't hear anything
but good things from them. I hope they're not. Because we're
all in it together.
KING: You want to do this the rest of your life?
OSTEEN: I do. I do. I know it's what I'm called to do. I feel
like this is why I was born. Even though I never dreamed I'd
be doing it. But I know now I never dreamed I'd be able to get
to help people like this. I never dreamed it was in me. I didn't
know I could get up to speak in front of people and impact people's
lives. I didn't know I could do that. I was shy.
KING: We'll get to those seven steps in a minute. We'll be taking
your calls, as well. Don't go away.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
OSTEEN: And our attitude should be, I refuse to dwell on the
negative things that have happened to me. I'm not going to go
around thinking about all that I've lost. I'm not going to focus
on what could have been or should have done. No, I'm going to
draw the line in the sand. This is a new day and I'm going to
start moving forward knowing that God has a bright future in
store for me. If you do that, God will give you a new beginning.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
KING: We're back with Joel Osteen. The book "Your Best
Life Now" a major bestseller. "Seven steps to living
at your full potential." The new one "Your Best Life
Now, A Journal." It's a guide for the earlier book, right?
You used it as a compendium, in a sense.
OSTEEN: That's exactly right. It's just something to put your
notes in. Kind of help you get along there.
KING: Don't you ever doubt?
OSTEEN: No. I don't -- I wouldn't say that I do. I guess I do
and I don't think about it too much. (Lord help us! How confused
can a person sound in one sentence?)
KING: Well, 9/11.
OSTEEN: Well, yeah.
KING: Didn't you say what? Why?
OSTEEN: You do. You definitely do.
KING: And how do you answer?
OSTEEN: To me it comes back and God's given us all our own free
will. And it's a shame but people choose ...
KING: The people in the building didn't have free will.
OSTEEN: But the thing is, people can choose to do evil with that
will. And that's what's unfortunate. But you know, of course
you always doubt. I mean, you have to override it. But we see
in the church every week, somebody's coming up and my baby was
not born properly and you know, all these other things. You just
...
KING: But don't you want to know, why would an omnipotent
-- assuming he is omnipotent -- God permit that?
OSTEEN: I don't know, Larry. I don't know it all. (Not only does
Joel not have an answer to why God would permit something, he
never even corrected Larry King about God being omnipotent!)
KING: A deformed baby had nothing to do with free will.
OSTEEN: Exactly. I don't claim to know it all. I just think that
trusting God means we're going to have unanswered questions and
God is so much bigger than us we're never going to understand
them all. And I tell people that have lost a child or that have
gone through some kind of tragedy, you've got to have a file
in your mind called and I don't understand it file. And you've
got to put it in there and not try to figure it out and not let
it ruin the rest of your life and not get bitter. And that's
what we see so many people do.
KING: But you're not asking for blind faith. Don't you want people
to question?
OSTEEN: Oh, I do. I think you do at a certain point. But I don't
think you can let something ruin -- I've seen too many people
angry at God and they live the rest of their life that way. You've
got to say God, I don't understand why this happened to me but
I'm going to move on. The worst thing we can do is wallow around
in self- pity. I talk in the book, too, about letting go of the
past. I know it's hard. I'm making it sound easy, it's not. But
sometimes you've got to say I don't understand it. We were all
praying for my dad. He was 77 when he died. You'd think we've
got a church full of people praying but I don't know. It was
probably his time to go, obviously. But I don't understand until
(ph) some of the others.
KING: Do you ever involve politics in the sermons?
OSTEEN: Never do. My father never ...
KING: Never mention President Bush?
OSTEEN: Well, only to pray. Only to pray. We prayed for President
Bush, Clinton, all of them. But I've never been political. My
father hasn't. I just, I have no ...
KING: How about issues that the church has feelings about?
Abortion? Same-sex marriages?
OSTEEN: Yeah. You know what, Larry? I don't go there. I just
...
KING: You have thoughts, though.
OSTEEN: I have thoughts. I just, you know, I don't think that
a same-sex marriage is the way God intended it to be. I don't
think abortion is the best. I think there are other, you know,
a better way to live your life. But I'm not going to condemn
those people. I tell them all the time our church is open for
everybody.
KING: You don't call them sinners?
OSTEEN: I don't.
KING: Is that a word you don't use?
OSTEEN: I don't use it. I never thought about it. But I probably
don't. But most people already know what they're doing wrong.
When I get them to church I want to tell them that you can change.
There can be a difference in your life. So I don't go down the
road of condemning.
KING: You believe in the Bible literally?
OSTEEN: I do, I do.
KING: Noah had an ark and Adam and Eve?
OSTEEN: I do. I do. I believe that. I believe it all.
KING: Isn't it hard to accept that one day appeared two people
and they ate an apple and ...
OSTEEN: It is. But it's also hard, too, to look at our bodies
and say, my brother's a surgeon, how could our bodies be made
like this? We couldn't have just come from something. It's just
hard, when my child was born I thought seeing him in the little
sonogram I thought look at that. He's got eyes. How is that developing?
It's just, I don't know. I look at it like that.
KING: The book describes seven steps to living at full potential.
I want to ask you about -- Choose to be happy. Now, how the heck
do you do that?
OSTEEN: Well, I think, Larry. It's just an attitude we've got
to get up and make a decision every single day. I mean, what
so many people today do, they focus on what they don't have instead
of what they do have. They focus on what's wrong instead of what's
right. And I believe that all of us, if we want to, can be happy
right where we are. We may not be laughing our heads off but
we can get up and say, you know what, I'm in a tough situation,
but this is where God has me and I'm going to make the most of
it. And I think that that's where so many of us miss it today.
We're waiting to be happy one day.
KING: How about the Eastern philosophy that says you're not entitled
to today. Today is a gift. So -- it doesn't matter if it's raining.
It's a beautiful gift today.
OSTEEN: I've not heard it. But I'd degree with it.
KING: You aren't entitled to today.
OSTEEN: Well, that's right. It's a gift God gave us. What if
we weren't here? To me, I say it all the time, every day we live
negative and discouraged and unhappy, that's a day we've wasted.
And I'm not going to waste you know, just because I don't get
my way or something happens.
KING: Another seven steps -- one of the seven steps is live to
give, charity is, in the Talmud, the greatest thing of all.
OSTEEN: Yeah. I believe it is. I believe that's the whole spirit
of Christianity is, you know, having a lifestyle of giving. Not
giving at Christmas, not giving every once in awhile but having
an attitude to give. I've always said this, if you'll get up
and make it your business to make somebody else's day, God will
make your own day.
KING: I love to give.
OSTEEN: I know.
KING: Giving is selfish. You get a great reward.
OSTEEN: I know, you really do. That's what life is all about.
We were not made to be ingrown. I believe, maybe I'm off. But
that's probably 95 percent of unhappiness is selfishness. I'm
only focused on my problems or thinking about how I get ahead
in my career. And certainly we want to do some of that. But we
need to get up and focus on others.
KING: Find strength through adversity. Bad is good.
OSTEEN: Well, I think the way I believe that god won't let something
come into your life unless he's going to use it for your good.
Now you've got to keep the right attitude for that to happen.
But that helps us in our struggles to, say you know what? God's
going to get something good out of this. This is a tough time
but I'm just going to believe, I'm going to trust. I may not
see it for a year or five years but I believe it's going to turn
around. And a great example is in my dad's death. My dad and
I were best friends. Worked with him for 17 years. I told before
my wife I don't know what I'm going to do when my dad dies. I
loved him. We were good friends. But when my father died the
darkest hour of my life is when I felt that stinging here, that
I was supposed to step up and preach.
So I see how in my darkest hour something new was born. I believe
that God always opens up a new door.
KING: Do you know you're getting through to people? Billy Graham
used to know it because they came down and gave themselves to
Christ. How do you know?
OSTEEN: I feel the same way. I can see it there in the church
when I see my book do what it did. And when we go to arenas across
the country and every one of them has been sold out (notice he
says sold out, not filled up). Its just, you know, we get thousands
of letters and stuff. And you know, I feel like we are, you know.
I feel like we're making a difference.
KING: We'll be right back. We'll include your phone calls for
Joel Osteen, senior pastor of the Lakewood Church in Houston.
Reportedly the largest, fastest growing congregation in the United
States and the author of "Your Best Life Now" and now
"Your Best Life Now Journal." Don't go away.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
OSTEEN: And there's nothing the enemy would love any more than
for you to go around thinking about your faults and weaknesses,
all the mistakes you made last week and all the times you messed
up last month.
No, don't even go down that road. Quit dwelling on what you've
done wrong and start dwelling on what you've done right. You
may not be all you're supposed to be, but at least you can thank
God you're not what you used to be. And we all make mistakes.
But you know what? You need to learn to just be quick to repent.
Say God, I'm sorry, forgive me. Help me to do better next time.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
KING: We're back with Joel Osteen, the pastor of the Lakewood
Church in Houston. The author of "The New York Times"
best-seller "Your Best Life Now." He's been called
the smiling preacher. You like that?
OSTEEN: It doesn't bother me. I like it.
KING: You do smile a lot.
Fontana, California. Hello. CALLER: Yes -- Joel?
OSTEEN: Yes.
CALLER: I have a question for you. We're a small congregational
church here and we'd like to come and see you next month, but
you charge to get in and we're a very poor congregation. Why
do you charge to get in to your appearances?
OSTEEN: Yes. The only reason we charge -- I hated to charge.
The only we charge...
KING: You charge at the church?
OSTEEN: No, no, never. Never. (Yet their website has an advertisement
for their Christmas show that says tickets are on sale now for
$10) see Joel Osteen's Rock Show
KING: When you travel?
OSTEEN: Yes.
The only reason we did is because when we went New York to Madison
Square Garden they wouldn't let us do an event without doing
a ticketed event because of the crowds. We sold it out two nights
and we turned so many people away in Anaheim and Atlanta, it
was just a shame to do that.
Hey, you know, you need to write the church, because we'll make
a way that anybody can get in to those events. I don't like charging.
KING: What do you charge?
OSTEEN: $10.
KING: To Milford, Delaware. Hello.
CALLER: Hi, Joel?
OSTEEN: Yes.
CALLER: I have a question for you.
OSTEEN: OK. Go ahead.
CALLER: OK. I heard years ago that your mother was healed of
cancer. Do you know why it's not God's will that everyone is
healed of cancer?
OSTEEN: You know, I can't answer that. I think it's a good question...
KING: Do you wonder, though?
OSTEEN: Sure, sure we all do. I don't know what it is and I just
know that I'd rather believe and just stay in faith and just
hope and you know, that's the best thing to do. That's better
in case...
KING: So, you've never had an answer to why he lives and he dies.
OSTEEN: No. We don't. I don't think we do. I think that's in
God's hands and I don't understand it. I don't claim to understand
it all. I just thank God that my mother was healed and we pray
for others and ask for that same mercy on their lives and we've
seen it happen. And you know there are others that don't.
KING: How do you balance the personal appearances with the church?
You need to pastor.
OSTEEN: Well, I'm just very careful in that I put my first priority
there at the church and I'll take a -- I'll preach the -- a lot
of times the same message there at the church on Sunday that
I preach on a Friday night event. So, I don't let them take away
from the church, but we just wanted to get out and be with the
people. So...
KING: Are you out every week?
OSTEEN: No. We went -- we're out 20 weeks this -- or 20 dates
this year, but like 15 weeks.
KING: Like concert tours dates?
OSTEEN: Exactly. Just like that.
KING: You're in big arenas?
OSTEEN: Big arenas. Big arenas.
Yes. It's something, Larry, we never dreamed of. I wanted to
do some last year and we -- when we went to -- we picked a couple
cities and I told some guys on the team, "I don't know if
we should get an auditorium of a thousand, or 5,000 or 10,000
and finally I said, "Let's get a basketball arena and we'll
turn off the top, you know, the top lights if nobody shows up.
We did it in Atlanta and the building was filled up, you know,
an hour before and hey had to shut it down. So, you know, God's
blessed us.
KING: Do you get a lot of young people?
OSTEEN: Yes, lots of young people. It's good. A lot of young
people.
KING: Studio City, California. Hello.
CALLER: Hi, how are you?
KING: Hi.
CALLER: Hi, my name is Tricia (ph), Joel. How are you?
OSTEEN: Good, thank you. CALLER: Good, thank you. I was just
interested in finding out: You're such a busy man, how do you
juggle family and your personal life and what do you like to
do for fun?
OSTEEN: What I like to do for fun is to play basketball, play
with my kids, hang out with my family. They're my main friends,
my family and I think it's just what you said, we just -- you
just have to balance your life. I don't -- it's a big church
but I have a good staff. I don't -- unfortunately I don't do
the weddings and the funerals and a lot of things that a pastor
of a smaller church does.
So, I just -- you know, I made a decision that I don't want my
kids to grow up and not know me just because I'm so busy and
on Dr. Graham talks about that -- I just I stay at home.
KING: How have you handled fame?
OSTEEN: You know, I never think about it. I never think about
it. I don't feel like I changed at all. I haven't changed my
routine. I haven't, you know, I don't -- I guess the main thing:
I feel a bigger responsibility. I spend plenty of quiet time
in the morning searching my heart, staying on the right course
and just staying humble before God.
KING: Not let it get to you?
OSTEEN: Not let it get to your head.
Because I've seen too many.
They've been where I am and way past and they've come falling
down.
KING: Many people have been calling here telling me -- asking
about your schedule. Is it printed anywhere? You know, when you're
appearing?
OSTEEN: Yes. It can be on -- it's on the Web site.
KING: And what's that?
OSTEEN: That is JoelOsteen.com. I guess just my name dot-com,
I think.
KING: OK. You just go to JoelOsteen.com.
OSTEEN: Yes. They can get it.
KING: And you get the schedule.
OSTEEN: Exactly. We're going to be in Anaheim and back to Madison
Square Garden. We have quite a few more dates this year. Love
to have people come out.
KING: Do you ever use a show business term: Bomb? In other words,
do you ever not connect? Are you ever speaking and like a third
of the way in saying, "I don't have 'em?"
OSTEEN: I think so. I think so.
KING: Can't be perfect all the time.
OSTEEN: Even at my own church, sometimes I feel like: You know
what, I don't know if they're receiving this and sometimes it's
me because I'm tired. Sometimes when I feel I've done the worst,
people come up to me and say, "Man, that was great today."
And sometimes, you know, you're looking for a little bit of feedback
and if you don't get -- but I just try to stay focused, say,
"you know what, I believe this is what I'm supposed to be
doing." I'm not perfect.
KING: What do you wonder about the most? Now, I mean, you accept
things as they are: He gets cancer, she doesn't. What do you
-- what though, boggles your mind about this world?
OSTEEN: What do I wonder about? You know what, Larry?
I don't know. I don't know. Nothing comes to the forefront of
my mind. I just...
KING: There's no great searching?
OSTEEN: There's no great thing
KING: Or on going problem?
No, no. I just...
KING: Let's take depression, it affects over 20 million people.
OSTEEN: Sure. Yes, I just think that, you know, I speak a lot
about that, and you know, I don't -- I just think, you know,
that's just one way that we all have to deal with -- sometimes
it's clinically. A lot of times, it's an attitude and it's that
we've gotten so focused on, like I said, ourselves and things
like that. So, I don't know, Larry. I don't have any great wonderment.
KING: "Let Go of the past," is another one of your
seven steps.
That's not easy to do, since the only thing we have right to
this minute is our past.
OSTEEN: It is and I should have said let go of the negative things
of the past and really my thing is this: You can't receive the
new things God wants to do if you won't let go of the old. And
bye that I mean, we talk with so many people -- they've been
through a bitter divorce and they want to live their life angry.
Maybe it wasn't their fault, somebody hurt them and I just think
that, you know, dragging yesterday into today, the negative things,
is only going to ruin today. So --
KING: You think we choose to be angry? OSTEEN: I think we do.
I think we do and over time it becomes a habit and all of a sudden,
you know, we think that's just who I am.
No. That's who we've developed into being, because I don't think
we have to be like that.
KING: Back with more of Joel Osteen.
More of your phone calls right after this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
OSTEEN: Archie and Jack argued for years whether Jesus was white
or black. Archie was certain that Jesus was white and Jack was
just as sure that Jesus was black. As fate would have it, they
both died on the same day and they rushed to the pearly gates
and they said, "St. Peter please tell us: Is Jesus white
or black? we've been arguing our whole lifetime."
About that time Jesus walked up and said, "Buenos dias."
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
OSTEEN: Some of you ladies have been wearing the same flannel
bathrobe to bed every night that your grandmother gave you 30
years ago. It's got holes in it. It's as ugly as it can be, and
you know it doesn't do anything for you, and it certainly doesn't
do anything for your husband. One of the best things that you
can do for your marriage is to throw that thing away, and go
down to Victoria's Secret and get something good that you can
wear. You wonder why Victoria and I have a great relationship?
It's called Victoria's Secret. (This is not the type of language
to be used in a Church setting with children of all ages present
along with teenagers, etc. Also, does this sound like a man of
God or a marriage counselor or psychologist. This type of activity
only proves that Joel does not have the Wisdom needed to be leading
a congregation of any size let alone one of multiple tens of
thousands )
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KING: Good line. Houston, Texas, hello.
CALLER: Yes, hi.
KING: Hi, go ahead.
CALLER: I was just wondering what Joel -- hi, Joel. I just finished
your book on Saturday. Actually it was audio that my sister sent
me two weeks ago and I think it's the best thing I've ever listened
to in my life, and I just wanted to thank you. But my question
was, I was wondering how old you were?
OSTEEN: I'm 42 years old.
KING: You look 14.
OSTEEN: Thank you.
KING: Bellbrook, Ohio, hello.
CALLER: Yes, my name is Matt Maynard, and Pastor Joel, I'm calling
to tell you, my grandma Bebby (ph) and I, we watch you every
day and we love you so much and your mom and Victoria, Lisa and
Paul, and we know you came from behind the scenes to being the
pastor of the church, and I would like to know, what gives you
strength to get up in front of all those people every single
day? Is it knowing that you touched so many people? And do you
get nervous?
OSTEEN: You know, I still get nervous, and I think what gives
you strength is, god gives you the grace to do it. You know,
just -- now I've done it for six years, so I've got a little
more confidence, but yes, it's...
KING: It's only been six years, though?
OSTEEN: That's right.
KING: Grand Forks, North Dakota, hello.
CALLER: Hey, I was calling -- I'm Jerry Lundabee (ph). I attend
Bible Baptist Church in Grand Forks, North Dakota, and one of
my -- I have a few questions here. I wonder if you might entertain
all of them. My first question was -- is, do you believe that
the bible is god's inspired word? I haven't heard you answer
that question yet.
KING: And your second question is what?
CALLER: My second question would be -- I don't know -- I heard
him talking a little bit ago about how he sees faith getting
stronger in America and across the world, and I believe that
it's the opposite, that -- we're seeing higher rates of divorce,
higher rates of drug and alcohol use among young people, and
old, and with abductions, and things like that getting worse
and worse.
KING: What do you think, Joel? First, inspired word.
OSTEEN: Yes, I believe the bible is god's inspired word. As far
as the other we kind of talked about, I can see his point, but
I think there's another point. How can we be moving our church
into our basketball arena that seats 16,000 people? I mean, people
are hungry for hope and encouragement.
KING: But there's never been more division than now in the United
States, politically, certainly.
OSTEEN: That is true. That is true. So, I don't know. You can
look at it. We could debate it...
KING: You're a glass-half-full, right?
OSTEEN: I am. I see, like I said, you look back 10 years ago,
there was, you know, not that many churches that had over 1,000
or 5,000 people. It's a different day today.
KING: We'll be back with more, and later, in a little while,
we'll met Mrs. Osteen. Don't go away.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
OSTEEN: There's been eagles spotted as high as 20,000 feet, up
there where the jets fly. The point is if you want to get rid
of your past, you've got to come up higher. Don't ever sink down
to their level. Don't ever sink down to their level. Don't try
to argue. Don't try to pay somebody back. Don't give them the
cold shoulder. Be the bigger person. Overlook their faults. Walk
in love. Learn to even bless your enemies. Somebody's talking
about you. Somebody's doing you wrong. Just bless them and move
on anyway. Let me tell you, in the long run, crows can't hang
with eagles. You do that and you'll rise above all that junk.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
KING: Hillsboro, Wisconsin with Joel Osteen. Hello.
CALLER: Good evening. Joel, I had the privilege a year ago
February of attending Lakewood and got a chance to meet you,
and it was really a wonderful experience. My question is, I was
just in a conversation with a friend recently, and he said he
believed that Lucifer was going to be the last one to enter heaven
after the rapture because he believed that god is a forgiving
god, and even Lucifer will be forgiven. And that just blew me
away. And I wondered what your thought would be on that.
OSTEEN: That sounds odd to me. I've never heard that. And it
sounds very off-the-wall to me. So...
KING: I asked Reverend Graham if god loves the devil. Didn't
-- couldn't -- he'd never been asked it before.
OSTEEN: I never thought of it either. I don't know.
KING: He loves everything. Does he love...
OSTEEN: I don't know. I'll leave that for Dr. Graham.
KING: Phoenix, Arizona. Hello.
CALLER: Hello, Larry. You're the best, and thank you, Joe --
Joel -- for your positive messages and your book. I'm wondering,
though, why you side-stepped Larry's earlier question about how
we get to heaven? The bible clearly tells us that Jesus is the
way, the truth and the light and the only way to the father is
through him. That's not really a message of condemnation but
of truth.
OSTEEN: Yes, I would agree with her. I believe that...
KING: So then a Jew is not going to heaven?
OSTEEN: No. Here's my thing, Larry, is I can't judge somebody's
heart. You know? Only god can look at somebody's heart, and so
-- I don't know. To me, it's not my business to say, you know,
this one is or this one isn't. I just say, here's what the bible
teaches and I'm going to put my faith in Christ. And I just I
think it's wrong when you go around saying, you're saying you're
not going, you're not going, you're not going, because it's not
exactly my way. I'm just...
KING: But you believe your way.
OSTEEN: I believe my way. I believe my way with all my heart.
KING: But for someone who doesn't share it is wrong, isn't he?
OSTEEN: Well, yes. Well, I don't know if I look at it like that.
I would present my way, but I'm just going to let god be the
judge of that. I don't know. I don't know.
KING: So you make no judgment on anyone?
OSTEEN: No. But I...
KING: What about atheists?
OSTEEN: You know what, I'm going to let someone -- I'm going
to let god be the judge of who goes to heaven and hell. I just
-- again, I present the truth, and I say it every week. You know,
I believe it's a relationship with Jesus. But you know what?
I'm not going to go around telling everybody else if they don't
want to believe that that's going to be their choice. God's got
to look at your own heart. God's got to look at your heart, and
only god knows that.
KING: You believe there's a place called heaven?
OSTEEN: I believe there is. Yes. You know, you've had a lot of
the near-death experiences and things like that. Some of that
is very, to me, not that you need that as proof, but it shows
you these little kids seeing the angels and things like that.
KING: We'll take a break, and when we come back, the better half,
Victoria, will join us. Don't go away.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
VICTORIA OSTEEN, EVANGELIST/WIFE OF PASTOR JOEL OSTEEN: You see,
if you have someone in your life today, and you don't like the
way they're treating you, I want to encourage you to take a look
at how you're treating them. If you will begin to treat them
differently, then you will get a different response. In other
words, say your spouse isn't giving you enough love. They're
ignoring you. They're not being kind and considerate to you.
Well, see, human nature is to give them a taste of their own
medicine, to treat them the same way. But when we do that, we're
just going to continue to reap what we're sowing.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK) KING: Joining us now in our remaining moments
-- the screen obviously improves -- Victoria Osteen, Joel's wife.
How'd you two meet?
V. OSTEEN: In my family's jewelry store. He came in to buy a
watch battery. And I sold him a watch. And he says, I've been
taking his money ever since.
KING: When did you get into the preaching business? We saw that
clip of you?
V. OSTEEN: Well, when Joel went through the transition after
his father died, I just -- he wanted me to take part in every
service. So I do. I take part in every service. I do just a little
encouraging piece. And then, this is my fourth Mother's Day message
to bring. So that was on Mother's Day.
KING: Why do you want her in?
OSTEEN: Well, one, she's fantastic. And you know, she just has
so much to give. And two, I think it increases our whole reach,
to be a team, to do it together. I mean, here's some young people
that are excited about God, and you know, there's not a lot of
women in the, you know, ministry.
KING: Were you always a believer?
V. OSTEEN: Yes, I was raised as a believer, yes.
KING: What happens when you -- do you two disagree?
V. OSTEEN: Sure. We agree to disagree sometimes, you know.
KING: You ever disagree on biblical philosophy?
V. OSTEEN: No, no. We're very -- we're very much in agreement
with the way we believe. And you know, Joel, what's so interesting
about Joel's message is that we've been married 18 years. So...
KING: Eighteen years?
V. OSTEEN: We've been married 18 years.
KING: He looks 15 and you look 22.
V. OSTEEN: Oh, OK. Golly, you're younger than me. I'm going to
have to do something about that. What I was going to say was,
what he speaks every week is exactly the way he lives. It's the
way he's always lived.
KING: There's no phony here?
V. OSTEEN: No. And you know, that nonjudgmental, when he sits
there and says, you know, I just don't judge that. Do you know
that's always the way he's been? He does not judge people. He
does not...
KING: I'll bet you do sometimes.
V. OSTEEN: Well, you know what? I've gotten better. I've gotten
better living with him. You can't do a whole lot of judging around
our house. You'll get in trouble.
KING: (INAUDIBLE) drive you crazy? He's nice. I like him. He
wasn't so bad. Don't hang up. He's nice.
V. OSTEEN: He's nice. He's real nice. And he always is nice,
but I'm getting nicer. And I like myself better.
KING: What did you think about the Victoria's Secret sermon?
V. OSTEEN: I thought it was probably we all needed to hear that.
We can all do better.
KING: Did you think twice before saying go to Victoria's Secret,
to prop up the marriage?
OSTEEN: I thought about it, because I write my sermons, and I
knew I'd get some letters. But I thought it kind of made the
point. And I liked it. And I don't know if it was worth all the
heat, but it was fun.
KING: Was there a hush in the crowd?
OSTEEN: No, they laughed. They were dying with me, so.
KING: The natural scheme of life is temptation. It's in front
of you every day.
OSTEEN: Sure.
KING: Have you ever been tempted?
OSTEEN: Absolutely. I think we all are, you know. But you have
to resist, and you have to keep your mind and your thoughts pure.
But I think we all are. And the Bible talks about, you've got
to pray to not enter into temptation. It doesn't say to pray
that you won't be tempted. We all are.
KING: Had a near slip?
OSTEEN: I never have.
KING: Victoria?
V. OSTEEN: No.
KING: You get tempted to?
V. OSTEEN: Yeah. I eat that pie when I know I shouldn't.
(CROSSTALK)
KING: I'm not talking about that kind of temptation.
V. OSTEEN: No, no. Sexual temptation?
KING: Yeah.
V. OSTEEN: No, no. I don't. I don't put things in me which, you
know, like a lot of times you can watch a lot of things and you
can put things in your mind as a seed, and they can give birth
to that kind of thing. But we really try to guard what we watch.
We guard what we -- what we allow to come in. And you know, I
think that's a lot of it. You have to guard your mind.
KING: Do you think your children have pressure on them to growing
up with a famous pastor?
OSTEEN: I don't think so. I mean, maybe they do.
KING: Do you want them to be in the church?
OSTEEN: Oh, I would love them to do something. But I don't know
what. Maybe they'll sing. Maybe they'll make movies. Maybe they'll
do something -- maybe they'll be a minister. I don't know. But
my father never pressured me, and we don't pressure ours. But
I do like to expose them to it. Because to me, it's such an opportunity,
and we just have such a heritage.
KING: Would you like to do some sermons, just you?
V. OSTEEN: Yes.
KING: Take a rest one week and why don't you do it?
V. OSTEEN: Yeah, well -- I -- well...
OSTEEN: As often as she could. She is more than welcome. And
she's great at it. And she does those (INAUDIBLE).
V. OSTEEN: He's so good, though, you know. I like to sit and
watch him.
KING: All right, what makes a good evangelist?
OSTEEN: Well, I don't know that I really know, but I think
that you have a sincere heart, that you're pure before God and
that you've got a relevant, practical message. And I think that's
one reason the church has grown is because we've changed with
the times. I mean, the music is upbeat. My message is what's
going to help you during the week and things like that. back
to text
KING: What makes a good evangelist's wife?
V. OSTEEN: Helping him keep his focus. Complimenting him.
KING: Criticizing?
V. OSTEEN: I don't criticize, but I make suggestions.
KING: Does he read you his sermon each week before...
V. OSTEEN: No.
KING: No, you don't know what he's going to say?
V. OSTEEN: No. I don't. I could go up to his office and read
it if I wanted to. But since I'm going to hear it so many times...
(CROSSTALK)
KING: You ever get tired of repeating it?
OSTEEN: It gets -- it's -- yeah. It's tiring physically.
KING: You do it five times?
OSTEEN: Yeah, it's physically tiring. But you know what, you
just see the people out there, and it's like you said earlier,
I realize this is the first time they've come this week. I've
got to give it all I've got.
KING: What do you worry about the most?
V. OSTEEN: Probably my children. My children. I don't -- I'm
concerned, you know. Because I'm a mother. And I want the best
for them.
KING: It's not easy growing up.
V. OSTEEN: It's not. But you know, you have to trust. But I fight
that. I fight, you know, not being so fearful, and I just --
but yeah, that's -- my kids.
KING: Do you have a doubt?
V. OSTEEN: I fight doubt, I do, sure. But I resist it. I try
to change my thinking. Because it's kind of like this, Larry,
you know, Joel says we can choose this. Well, it just makes you
aware that there is another way. It makes you aware that there
is a possibility. You know, if you've had a tragedy in your life,
and you have someone like Joel telling you, you know, you can
get over this, and this is how you can do it, you know, it just
opens you up to see another way. And unless someone gives you
another way to think, you'll never know. So I think that's where
it comes, the choosing comes. It's to say, there is another option
out there.
KING: You're going to win the award as the happiest people ever
to be on this program.
OSTEEN: Thank you.
KING: Thank you, Joel.
OSTEEN: God bless you, Larry. My pleasure.
V. OSTEEN: Thank you.
KING: Joel Osteen and Victoria Osteen. Joel is senior pastor
of the largest and fastest growing congregation in the United
States, the Lakewood Church in Houston. He's called the Smiling
Preacher. And you can see why. And his number one "New York
Times" best-seller "Your Best Life Now: Seven Steps
to Living at Your Full Potential." The companion now published,
"Your Best Life Now Journal," and Victoria Osteen,
as well.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Well, in a nutshell....Joel Osteen really needs to get it
right or he is liable to lead thousands if not millions into
a false security thinking they are going to heaven just because
they are happy and know that God and Jesus exist. That is not
enough. Let's pray that Joel opens his mind and heart to the
truth of God's Word and changes before it is too late. Blessings,
Robert Wise |